Takin' Care of Business - The Song of My Life!

Yes, I know, it has been awhile.... "long time no blog."

Been busy...well, MORE busy than in the winter, anyway.  Even as I write this, I really should be doing some paperwork I have been neglecting...and with that in mind, I will be keeping this short....

Yes, I know you have heard that from me before....and I still manage to write pages and pages...well, not today....trying to keep my word today.

Anyway, the title of today's post is connected to its contents in 2 ways.  As a "Hardcore Picker", I am working every day, every way. Even my "off time" is usually connected to "the business"..or I will connect it.

Last week, I had to attend a family member's funeral, about 2 hours from home. While driving to my parents through the town looking for the church, I spotted a sign nailed to someone's garden shed.

After the funeral, I took the same route back to the highway. I  stopped on the road where I noticed it,  so I could take a better look, and sure  enough, it turned out to be a 1930s Orange Crush sign.  Considering the emotionally draining nature of the day, I made a mental note of it, and I will go back in a week or two to see I can buy it, and follow up some other leads in that area.

My eyes never stop working. Sometimes they slow down, get tired, but if they are open, they notice things at times that I am not actively picking or scouting.

Ever see someone in a suit picking over the merchandise at a garage sale?

 En route to a wedding?

 Their OWN wedding?

 That is likely why my wife decided we should have a small private ceremony at home...She knows antiques dealers all too well.

Anyway, I promised to keep this short...and it ends here...pretty much.  However, you may want to bring up YouTube and put on Takin' Care Of Business by the iconic, Western Canadian rockers, BTO.

And (with apologies to Randy Bachman ,Fred Turner, and the other BTO members)......

NOW you can sing along, PICKER STYLE, using the lyrics below....(this is technically still a work in progress, BTW!)

----- INSERT IMAGINED DRUM ROLL HERE ------

    I present you with a tune I have titled:


Pickin' For A Livin'
 

I get up in mornin’

At the alarm clock’s warning.

Out drivin’ dirt roads rarely travelled

There’s an old farm up ahead

 I slow the van down

turn and drive up the rutted lane

And my heart skips a beat

Maybe I can pay my bill for heat

Cause I see tons o’ junk around the sheds

And then I see the ol’ boy

He says his name is Elroy

But just call him plain Roy

He used to go…

Pickin’ for a livin’, every day

Pickin’ for a livin’, every way

Oh yeah, I picked all this old stuff, it’s all fine

Pickin’ for a livin’, yeah all this stuff is mine.

Come on!

He showed me ‘round the yard and sheds,

Then showed me piles of cast iron beds

rusty shades of red, brown and yellow

Asked him "How Much?" And he replied

10 bucks a piece takes ‘em all, Clyde

Yeah, seems cheap, but he knew what he was doin’

He had made the huge piles

Over quite a long while,

Bought ‘em all at under scrap price, no foolin’

You see the ol’ boy was smart

He was a hard workin' ol’ fart

Told me: “I loved dealin’ in ol’ junk

But it is time to sell it all

I turned 90 late this fall

And now along comes you, this young punk

Who says he’s…

Pickin’ for a livin’, every day

Pickin’ for a livin’, every way

Oh yeah, I picked all this old stuff, it’s all fine

Pickin’ for a livin’, yeah all this stuff is mine.

He’s just like me

Spent his life

Pickin’ for a livin’, every day

Pickin’ for a livin’, every way

Oh yeah, I picked all this old stuff, it’s all fine

Pickin’ for a livin’, yeah all this stuff is mine.

DEALERS NOT WELCOME

Now, if you are a dealer, note that before you get upset, keep reading! 

I always have to shake my head when I see ads for estate sales, garage sales, etc that read "NO DEALERS".

I think: What, are you INSANE? You WANT dealers there! THEY are the REAL buyers!

If you want a successful sale, and have loads of merchandise leaving, and piles of cash in your pocket, your ad should start with:

 "DEALERS WELCOME - FREE COFFEE & BEER!"

Well, ok, maybe not quite that whole phrase, but you get my drift....maybe leave out Coffee.

Thing is, I am a picker, dealer, wholesaler, collector, researcher, history buff, treasure hunter, artist, craftsman, restorer.....and these terms are only part of a long list.

I go on house calls, I have a shop, I go to auctions, I go on cold calls when I am picking, I attend estate sales, garage sales, flea markets, etc, etc...I will even "trash pick" if I spot something I can make a buck on. So add trash-picker/bin-diver/scrapper to the list...

oh, "writer" is another...

whoops, "blogger" better make its way on the list, also....
 
When people try to pigeon hole you into a "category" it tends to never quite fit. I love picking, it is what I started doing to finance my love of treasure hunting, and have never stopped...But, along the way I opened a shop, because the dealers I wholesaled to never bought it "all"..and, frankly, there was things they didn't want that I KNEW there was a market for.

When eBay came along, it provided me with solid proof that I did know what I was doing. Many dealers I sold to had a narrow view of the collecting world....their attitudes were like "You can't tell me that computer, those snowmobile suits and that cereal box are all collectible! Not a chance! You're crazy to buy that junk."

Turned out there were collectors out there paying good money for pretty much ALL the various things that other dealers had said were not of any value. Many of those same dealers then started to watch very carefully what I was buying....much to my chagrin.

I suppose I could just consider it a compliment...

The market has changed dramatically in the last 15 years, however. There are so many things that I do not buy anymore, or, when I do buy those items, they need to be dirt cheap, as the values have dropped dramatically. Other things I can pay more for than I have in the past.

Collecting habits change with various things....from the age of the collector, to events (like 9/11) that cause people to re-evaluate what is important in their lives. Things like recessions cause "collecting" to be the last thing people are spending money on.

The reasons go on and on. They are as varied as categories of collecting, though there are a few reasons that form the bulk of why people change (or eliminate) their collecting habits.

Reality TV has latched on to the "junk biz" as a vehicle to make some money.  But I have to wonder if that is really helping the business, in the current form the programs are taking?

Your time with Zoltar has ended.........insert 10 cents in the slot and all will be revealed. PayPal accepted!

PICKEALER

I know, the title is confusing. Will come clear as to what it is about, momentarily.

I read a blog posting on an 'antique magazine' website awhile back.  After a few minutes of searching online, I did happen to find the article, and I did notice that it dates from back in 2003....I know I ready it only a few months ago, but the content really has not changed in relevance.

I do agree with some of what he has to say, and I disagree with a few other minor things, mainly his definitions.

The author was describing the "definition" of a picker, wholesaler and dealer.

He apparently has been in the business a long time....but, I was surprised to read how narrow his definitions of those titles were. According to his comments, a "picker" apparently are supposed to specialize in a certain area.

Hmmm...I don't know ANY picker who specializes in one area....not going to make much money that way...not in most provinces in Canada, anyway.  He terms those who buy a variety of things as being "wholesalers"

  Yes, I wholesale items, but that does not make me any less of a picker. I retail items also, so that means I am a dealer?  So, by his definitions I am a dealer-picker-wholesaler

A DPW?

A PWD?

Or a WPD?


Sure, I love old advertising and related items, and am pretty knowledgeable in that area, but if I am picking an old store, and I see depression glass there I won't just leave it behind.

Or if I see some folk art item in the back room, I won't pass it by.

And see that  mid-century modern teak table lamp over there, over in the former "Housewares" section?

 I'll buy that, too.

All those vintage electrical components? Put them in my pile.

Oh, and those 1950s cowboy shirts? And the box of NOS seamed nylon stockings?

Yep, I want those, too.

Those 1970s vinyl squeaky Barbapapa toys? Put them beside the lamp, please.

That 1979 IBM  computer the store's owner's accountant brother gave her after he upgraded? DEFINITELY want that, too.

Now just need to figure out how to load it all...

So, MY definition of a picker is someone who IS a "generalist", not a "specialist."


Sure, many of us have our specialties, but we don't focus on a narrow area. I'd have gone broke long ago if I had done that.  It would be FANTASTIC to be able to "pick" one specialty, or collectible category, but it is simply not realistic...especially if you want to make a real living. If you were only picking in that category, suppose you could be called "specialty picker", that I could agree with.

Normally, from my experience over the last 20+ years, those who do specialize in that sort of thing are called "Specialty DEALERS"...not "pickers".

Anything to make a buck, remember? Frankly, roughly 80% of the trade in the antiques business is dealer to dealer, anyway. AND I mean "dealer" as a general catch-all term....as in picker/wholesaler/dealer/specialty-dealer/specialty-picker/etc/etc/etc.... ANYONE who is in the junk biz.

We all have our own knowledge, markets, talents, etc that allow us to make money on the items we buy.

I don't mind wholesaling something, especially when I know I can't move it quickly for "retail"...whatever that really means....my retail could be another dealer's "wholesale"...and yet another dealer's "double retail!"

I have many items that I've priced at a wholesale level, simply because I want to sell them, not hang on to them for years.. There are many items that I know will not end up selling to the end "collector."


See that gadget over there?  No, not the bobbing head doll...beside it...Yeah, the wachamacallit.

It will be a dealer who will buy it. They will up the price and sell it to some customer they have.

Am I upset? Not a chance. Suits me fine...I have sold it, that is the important part.

So, Ya Wanna De a Dealer, eh?

(IMPORTANT! Please note that the title above is to be said with a Jack Nicholson accent. Thank-you for your co-operation!)

I have been getting lots of questions about items from Facebook friends....people who just happen to have "stuff" and some who are starting to "pick", getting their feet wet, so to speak. You do get your feet wet in this business, at times...and I do mean literally...stepping in basements with a half-foot of water in your brand new work boots...christening them.....but, we're not talking about that....not in this blog, anyway.

 I don't mind giving "free advice," to a point.

Of course, I can not afford to be doing lots of "free appraisals," either.  Went over that whole "time is money" issue in a blog entry awhile back, as you may recall.

I do spend a little too much time yakking with folks about their finds; dispensing advice, assessing items, giving tips, etc.  I don't really make any money doing that. Haven't figured out how to, either. Should I pop a "Donation" button on the blog? On Facebook? With every answer I give and/or post I do?

Sure, I could charge appraisal fees and all that, but that is not quite what I feel I need to do....I just can't figure out some other way to make money from these "free" services. 

The doing "appraisals" for money thing is why I have attempted to sign up as an "expert" on that site I have been nattering and bitching about. I guess we'll see how it pans out. I am not interested in doing appraisals of estates, items, and collections for people's insurance policies and the like. That would mean I have to take a "course" on "appraising." I do not have money or time for that. Plus, odds are I'd end up spending far more time on research than I should, and end up loosing money.

I do know that if I get many more people asking questions about items, I am going to have to start charging...just to cut down on the numbers...as it does take a fair bit of my time....and it simply doesn't pay the bills. The wife also gets annoyed with me spending the additional time online...which I also do understand.

Plus, I am a nice guy, so I will try to answer people's inquiries. What can I say?

If some TV producer wanted to pay me to dispense free advice I'd do it. Maybe something to pursue.

Oh, yeah, then the advice isn't going out really for "free" now, is it?

By now I bet you are thinking:

"What the heck does this babble have to do with the title he has on this post????"

I'm getting there, hang on...

So, the question that I posed in the title: Should you become an antique dealer?

Or, to rephrase it: Should I become a picker?

Answer: Depends.

Ah, no, not the adult diapers....

It takes up LOTS of time...no, no, not adult diapers...focus here people, focus!

I don't want to burst anybody's bubble, dash their dreams, etc.

However, you need to be realistic when you are thinking about stepping full time into this business.

Do you really want to spend 10, 12, 14, 16, or even 18 hours a day working?

'Cause that is what it takes. I know some of you may notice I am on "Facebook" quite a bit from Nov to March. Part of the reason is that it is WINTER here during those months, and COLD, so I am inside working...researching, posting auctions, sales listings, etc, much of the time. I have inventory that needs to be researched, sorted, cleaned, etc. I happen to have a Facebook page open a fair bit, just to communicate with some of the dealers I have "friended", doing some networking, and to promote sales listings, etc. Not really there to chat....or, rather, that is usually not my intent. (But, yes, it happens, ok?!?)

So, I am online lots in the winter. Have tons of stuff to do...am getting a website up soon (finally), and need to make $ also. I currently have no fully operating store front, really. I do consign some items at a friend's storefront in a nearby town, but the sales of the vintage items at the place is not exactly "hopping" this time of year, either. It is a small town...I know how slow it got in the winter at my shops in the city, so I do not expect much in a small town.

You folks who live in year 'round warm southern climes don't know how good you have it, really. Your retail sales season is so much longer, overall. I realize things like holidays and such might slow your sales, but nothing can kill your business like icy highways, closed highways, severe weather warnings, snowstorms, temperatures with windchills that freeze exposed skin in 2 minutes....shall I go on?  

You may now thank the god of your choice for where you live...

Really, though, I like it in Manitoba. It is beautiful, and the winter is bearable, even enjoyable, most of the time.  No worries about hurricanes, killer bees (they don't survive the cold winters!) and a long list of other scary/annoying things. We do have black widow spiders, though I think I have seen maybe one or two in over 20 years of picking through all sorts of places where they could potentially dwell.

And did I mention summer is GREAT?  I think we maybe appreciate it more, with the extreme temperatures we experience.

So, anyway, I see I went off on one of those tangents again.....

The thing is, it does depend on many things.

You becoming a full time antiques dealer/picker, I mean. Just a reminder of what we are taking about...in case you forgot during the side trip I took you on, or your mind is still stuck on Depends diapers (you weirdo!)

Yes, yes....I know, you'll be wearing Depends by the time I finish this blog...ha, ha, ha.

Did I mention I am psychic picker? 

No not really....I'd have picked the winning lottery numbers by now.....

Ok, you can quit groaning now...If YOU get to tell a joke, I get to tell a joke!

Yeah, I sort of did both of them....

AHEM, *cough* *cough* Ok, so there is LOTS of time spent doing STUFF of all sorts as a dealer/picker.  So, first question is, do you want to spend time with your family? 

No family? Just a "better half"? Take note that spouses will resent the time you are spending away from them. Even if they are involved in the business with you....you take off to an auction, and they end up stuck working the storefront, packing stuff for shipping the next day from your online auction sales, etc, etc...

It can take a toll on your personal life. Have lots of friends? But they aren't into "old stuff" like yourself?

Oh oh....

Much of a dealer's/picker's social life revolves around the business. Antiques shows, flea markets, going for lunch with other dealers after doing garage sales since 6:00AM, yakking while at another dealer's stores, going for beers after work to talk about the annoying pseudo-customer you had, coffee after that weekly evening auction, etc, etc...suddenly you realize that the majority of your friends are in the business in some capacity.

Now, if you are a "part timer", then this may not be the case. But, if you want to make your living doing this, especially in the financial climate we are in now, you are in for LONG work days. You will HAVE to socialize during "work." Oh, yes, you can work at this "full time" if you already have a bankroll and maybe sustain a separate social life...that is not difficult. But, after that bankroll runs out, and trust me, it will...you'll be struggling along with the rest of us.

In all my "chatting" with other full time dealers/pickers, I do hear how tough things are for 90% of the antiques dealing population. Oh, when I say "antiques", I mean antiques AND collectibles.

Seems the "I paid my staff/employee(s) and there was nothing left for me" is pretty common right now among those who require employees....and Kraft Dinner seems to be on the dealer/picker supper menu more often than it used to be.

I realize that all the "Junk TV" (and I mean that in a complimentary way, 'cause I love junk!) like American Pickers, Storage Wars, Pawn Stars, Auction Kings, Pawn Queens, Antiques Roadshow (American, Canadian and the original British one),etc, etc, etc all make this business look "fun" and even "glamorous" in some ways.

But, remember, they are TELEVISION SHOWS. Yes, it is "reality" TV, but so is "Survivor"...and I don't find that show all that "realistic." (I am sure there are those who will oppose me on that statement...)

 You don't see the boring times, the stressful times, the "I can't pay my bills this month" times, the "I'm sick as a dog and can't go picking and flip stuff for a couple weeks, so we will have to eat expired bargain brand cheese and macaroni for a month" times, the trips to the hospital for tetanus shots, stitches, etc.

So, when I got an email from a Facebook friend posing a question, I answered him with truth and honesty.
His initial inquiry is as follows (in italics):

So, Mr. Fedora, I need your opinion as an antique dealer. I may have an opportunity to go into the antique business full time but I'm concerned about the long term income potential. If things work out for me, I'll have a decent secondary income for a while, so even if it takes a little while to get my income up as a dealer, I won't starve.


But, my question is what can I expect to make once I have a year or two under my belt? Doing what you love is great, but I still need to pay the bills. I've got a wife who doesn't work and 3 kids, so it's all up to me.

What do you think? Do I stand a chance or should I keep a regular job and just continue antiquing on the side?

Thanks in advance for your help!

* * *

In the long winded fashion I tend to use, I answered thus (also in Italics):

Bare truth? Don't do it....at least not right now. Market in general is really soft at the moment. Antiques & collectibles aren't a big money maker when there is a downturn in the economy. Plus, the fact of the matter is, it is a TOUGH living.....I still have trouble supporting myself and my wife...if we had kids to support...I don't know where we'd be. My step-daughter is 20, and lives with her dad, who has basically been supporting her for the past 6 years...he's been in the biz a long time, also, and does make a living...but he is also not supporting a wife, and my stepdaughter is not exactly a big financial drain on him, anyway. She buys 2nd hand in most things, and is a bit of an artist type....I suspect she'll be a pretty decent actress.

Her dad is past retirement age, and busts his butt to make a go of the business, still.

That said, Manitoba is one of the toughest markets to make a go of it, so that is likely why we are having a rough ride, despite my experience & expertise. I have seen lots of antiques stores close. As it is/was, many of the dealers I know have/had other things to keep their heads above water...auctioneering, refinishing furniture, good pensions, spouses working at high paying jobs, just do it on the side of their regular job or business, etc, etc....I am one of the few that actually make their living at this, in this province...I can count the dealers who make their full living in this province (at just buying and selling antiques) on one hand...and the count is under 5. Many antique shop owners are retired folks with pensions, investments, etc...and they are "playing", or it is someone with a high paying job, and opens on the weekends. They don't need to sell stuff to put food on the table.

Your best bet for a more "local" take on it is to talk to people into the business in your area...see if it viable where you live, and if so, do try to supplement a brick and mortar store's sales with online sales of smaller items that don't sell in your area, but that you are able to buy at reasonable prices and sell well online.


I doubt you will make money within a couple years, frankly, if you were to open, and all did go well. Will take awhile. Not a get rich quick business...you have to love it, or don't do it. If you don't absolutely love old stuff, or you do love old stuff, but have a hard time parting with what you find, don't get into it as a business.


Also, it can be real hard on relationships. If your wife doesn't like old stuff...well, I have seen lots of couples (of all ages and backgrounds) break up because one didn't like the stuff and the other preferred to be surrounded by the stuff.

My best advice would be to keep the job that provides a steady income, and just keep antiquing on the side. Then, if you make some extra $ at it, you can take the family somewhere, or buy some new "toy", go out for suppers, or take the wife on a second honeymoon, etc. If you don't make any extra, well, it is entertainment that has (hopefully) paid for itself.

Don't risk your family's security.

I was "single" (sometimes seeing someone) up until 3 years ago, so it was only "me" I had to worry about supporting....And, financial stress also can destroy relationships quickly. Been engaged twice before....one 7 year relationship ended in a great part due to financial stress. So, if you and the wife are happy & secure financially, stick with that formula....it is working!


This biz is not all fun and games, though I realize TV makes it look like that. Mike and Frank are making far more $ off of licensing, media deals, merchandise, etc than they ever would just in the antiques biz. I'm also looking at other ways to parlay my experiences, my expertise, and interests into $, beyond buying and selling stuff. As it is, I had the same concept that Mike has brought to market, but it was 10 years ago. Due to "life", I didn't pursue it that heavy...and the "reality TV" market wasn't ready for it, anyway. Mike's timing and persistence paid off. Hopefully it helps the business in general. He's doing well now...but, I understand/heard that prior to the show, his income was around the $40,000 - $50,000 mark...and that would be due to a frugal picker style living, also. Plus, I'd expect he had some other $ banked or invested from previous business activities.


Anyway, hope I didn't bore you to death! Will likely blog about this subject, also....I know the thought/desire/dream is on many people's minds.

* * *

His response (yes, in italics again...how is your neck doing?)

Man, I really appreciate the advice. You have basically confirmed my gut instinct. And, no, I wasn't bored at all. That's exactly the kind of opinion I was seeking and I knew you could really elaborate on all the highs and lows.

Fortunately, my wife loves old stuff as well, so that usually doesn't present a problem. Her problem is patience. She has none. So, if I buy something, she expects to turn it around within a week or so and sometimes that just doesn't happen, as you well know. She would want to make good money right off the bat and I just don't think that's realistic, especially after getting your take on things.

I think I'll stick to the real job with this on the side because I don't want to make my family live a barebones lifestyle. If it were just me, that would be different. But, I can't do that to them.

Thank you very much for laying it out. I knew I could count on you for the straight dope. You really should blog on this because I know lots of people think it all glitz and glamour. Keep up the good work and look me up next time your in (his state).

* * *

Well, sounds like I might get a beer out of this bit of advice! The appreciation he expresses added to that makes it a good payment in my books!

That Damn Clock!

Back at it...researching that clock...

Welcome to the world of picking antiques! Not always fun and games.....lots of homework, too!

So, THE CLOCK:

Well, let's head back to this site.

And hit "Identifying the Maker".

And then: USING TRADEMARKS AND NAMES

Hmmm...well, we know we have the "Bailey" & "18 Chapel St" scratched on the back...

...and that hand written numbered label, but that is it...unless there is something on the back of the movement....which is a distinct possibility.

SO, got to take it apart & take out the movement...carefully!

Will go do that!  If you hear cursing, you'll know I broke something....back in a bit!

And, get out the ointment and bandages, just in case....

*******************************************

Well, no real news to report...not really much farther than before I took it apart...other than it is now apart. I have placed the little bits in a small zip lock bag (always advisable, seeing as parts can disappear easily, and it can he absolute hell trying to find a replacement for some things, even little screws. Save yourself the hassle, bag 'em ASAP.

Why not put it back together? Well, if I want to examine the movement for other clues, I don't want to have to risk damaging it by taking it apart yet again.

I did see more varnish, and did notice that it doesn't have wood stain on the upper sides inside, which is a good sign.

 The back board still seems to be original, but the additional splashes of varnish confirm that it has had some touch up done in the past, and possibly even fairly recent past.

I did notice a worn spot at the bottom of the case, where the bottom of the door rubs, which was stained, and shouldn't have been. (bottom left of photo) 

Sometimes this gets done in a antique shop, before an auction (etc) with scratch cover, but in a case of a piece this old, it is best to leave those true signs of age as they are. You will note the heavy wear on the door's one pillar, down through the original gold coloration, down to the gesso, where someone's fingers has touched that spot over and over, for many years, opening and closing the door, in order to wind the clock.

There is also varnish OVER the wear on that pillar....another sign someone has been "messing" with it, and an indicator to look closer.  This happens to furniture of all sorts, being varnished and re-varnished over its lifetime, but fairly fresh varnish on a very old piece should raise a red flag for you.

Now, this might be a good time to mention a repair that this clock has had done....I am well aware of it, and have been even prior to purchase. In this case, we are fortunate to have been given a "heads-up"....it was mentioned on that post-it-note that came with it! But, I have taken pics of it, as it is something that you may miss if you are not looking for it....good time to learn!

The bottom corner trim on the door was either damaged or missing, and has been replaced.

From the underside, you will notice the lightness of the wood, the lack of "air burn" on comparison to the other portion. The flash really makes this detail prominent, which actully isn't all that noticable in "real life"...not a bad job, but not done by a professional restorer...maybe a clock repair person, but not an antiques restorer.

And, the obvious sign is in the edge....

See the problem? No, no, not the fact the varnish doesn't really match...the flash actually brought that detail out....in regular light it looks darn close to a match. (NOTE: That is a veiled tip....taking a flash photo(s) of an item can bring out flaws, repairs, etc on an item...flaws and repairs you might not have noticed before...!)

So, did you see the other problem?

No?

How about if we compare it with the other side....?

Yep, whoever repaired it, didn't bother (or perhaps lacked the skill or expertise) to replicate the fine carved looping.

I know people who repair vintage items professionally, and if they don't hand carve such an important feature themselves (or have it done by someone else), they may replicated by use of a MOLD, using resin or plaster. They take a rubber copy of an adjacent piece, cast it, then painted/color it to match the other portions.

Watch for that, also!

So, we are not really that far ahead of where we started at the beginning of this post...though you may have learned a few things!

One thing I do want to do a quick Google search for the keywords: "pine case" and american mantle clock.

Yep, figure out what wood it is made of...that will help!

What did I find?

This site: http://www.peterriouxclocks.com/index.html

No, nothing pertaining to this clock...but, he had a link to this site:

http://www.timesavers.com/

Where I am going to see if they have a reproduction movement for this one...and see what it looks like...and it will quite possibly give me some information of what clocks they were used in!

Hmmm..this movement looks familiar....here is ours (back view, as well as another view):

But certainly not identical...and ours IS older, for sure....but, I still am a little suspicious of it....Maybe an old repro? 1950s - 1970s?  And, in reality, the newer one is quite different.

The more I look at ours I think it is an older repro. Guess we'll see. Hope not, but we need to be realistic. Its appearance, construction etc, just doesn't seem to jive with the age of the main parts of the case.

If you do come across old (1950s/60s/70s/80s) catalogs that show reproduction parts for antiques, as well as whole reproductions of antiques that were sold in those years, snag them for your research library! They may turn out very, very handy for identifying replaced parts, naturally aged reproductions, outright faked items, etc that you come across!  I already am seeing reproduction signs from the early 1980s popping up on the market with regularity. They appear on sites like eBay, in live antique auctions, flea markets, restaurant liquidations, even estate sales, etc, but are being represented as antiques, usually by the unaware. This occurs simply because the signs have been nailed to a fence outside in someone's yard for the last 25 years...and gotten faded and rusty. 

Rust, fading, scuffs, scratches, bird crap, paint spatters (etc) doesn't make something any less of a reproduction!

Back to our clock....

I'm wondering if there is anything to be seen on the back of the dial, the area obscured under the wood.

Looking at it, I spot another potential problem...yes, the nails are wrong, I already knew that....but the dial seems off center...

Notice the face is off center of the opening...hmmmm.

Now I REALLY need to take the face off of it... *sigh*

WARNING: This object is not as old as it appears!

Don't you wish it was that easy? All old looking items that are not all that old being marked as such?

Forget it...will never happen...SO, we need to LEARN what things are NEW and what is OLD...and HOW old....

How do you learn this?

Well, in a variety of ways. RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH...on a variety of topics is one of the ways to branch your knowledge out a bit. Lots of info online on how to detect old things from new thing, modern fakes, forgeries, etc.  There are a fair number of books on the subject out there, too.

AND don't forget to triple check that information you are reading. As an example, the use of a black light to find repairs & fake items can assist you in eliminating some fakes & repaired items...but don't think it is an all out "Sure thing" to determine age or the condition of those items. Use it as a tool, but not the perfect one answer.  You see, I know a fellow who repairs porcelains...he is very good, his repairs are tough to spot....and, he has figured out how to fool a black light, too. However, he adds a hidden "signature" to all his repairs, so if the item turns up at an auction, sale, estate, etc it can be determined if it is one of his repairs.

I note this as an example only, on how you really need to know FOR YOURSELF how to avoid fakes, forgeries and those "old looking" things that just are not that old.  You really can't trust all the reference books out there, either.

Why?

Well, I present to you as an example, (and certainly not the sole and only book with this issue) the "ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PORCELAIN ENAMEL ADVERTISING" by Michael Bruner, copyright 1994.

There is a Coca-Cola sign in the book, shown on the back cover, and the top and middle pictures on page 68.  It is said to date from the mid 1890s...and even has a "94" as the date code on one corner.
Worthpoint.com  has an eBay auction listed of that same sign, with a selling price of $9300, sold not that long ago (11/14/2006).

Funny, it was determined this item was a fantasy item (IE: never originally made)
 long before that....but, I digress...

Surprise, surprise, on Worthpoint.com we also find the identical sign...with the true story given...a "Replica sign".... "Only 2 were made by a graphic artist."...."one of two made" which sold 11/15/2007...for $199.

My first thought when bought the book back in 1995, and I saw the sign, was that it looked "wrong" for some reason...I couldn't put a finger on it at the time, but my gut said that something was just off.  (You also sometimes need to go with your gut feeling in this business, but that is yet another blog post!)

If you look at advertising from that period, and study the types of graphics used in the ads by Coca-Cola featuring that slogan, you will see they just don't jive with what is on this sign. But, in 1994, I had over 10 years less experience than I have now, so who was I to judge?

But, obviously the "experts" were fooled.  The back looks "right", the thickness & depth of the porcelain seems right for the period, the name of the company who made it is correct for the period. The date code is even "plausible"....but I wonder if it stands for 1994!  And, frankly, if it popped up at an auction of items that were of that period, all supposedly from the same source, say, being some old store or hotel's basement, that might have even tipped the scales for me to decide it was "right"...but, I'd have begun to wonder once I got looking at all the other period advertising using that slogan...and the graphics really not being similar at all....might have been an expensive lesson, too.

Dates shown on things don't always mean a whole heck of a lot. Take maker's marks on various things...the date as part of the mark may just give the date the company was founded (and the fact it is on the shelf in Wal Mart should be another tip-off...!)

Sometimes the number is not a date at all...it is a model number, or mold number, decorator number or some one's old high school locker combination....

BUT, on some things a prominent date should really say something to you...

"Is it really that old?"

Many repros, fantasy items an outright fakes have prominent dates on them.   I saw an "1800s" wooden sign being "shown off" on a chat thread on a particular antiques website...the thread was started to essentially promote the eBay auction of the sign.  No big deal, we all do that/have done that...more exposure the better. That's legit, I'd even encourage it, especially with the lack of  and declining collector traffic on eBay these days.

Problem is, they represented the sign as being from the period of the date on the sign....from the 1870s.

I collect old advertising, and am particularly fond of old wooden signs, so I have had the opportunity to handle (and own) several of them...and be the person to have the, umm, "pleasure" to have dirt & dust dumped in my face during their removal from some of their long term "storage" locations....which, if you have been following my blog, you will have already read about one.

So, when the dealer posted the sign on this public forum, it invited comments.

 Mine was "sorry, this is a modern decorator piece." I also went on to disclose and describe why it was of recent manufacture, and not old. It used lots of old, recycled wood, so it appeared to have some age...problem was, the wood was of various ages, and various sources.

My statements were followed up by other dealers' comments, all who agreed, and even pointed out OTHER reasons why there was no way it was old....one even describing how a particular type of board used in it was not even manufactured until 30 years after the date painted on the sign.

Even after the various somments were posted, the sign remained on eBay, represented as 100% original 1800s.

Sold for just over $600.

Hmm...As a decorator piece, it MIGHT have been worth $250....$350 if you really, really loved it.

As a piece of modern "folk art" done in an old style,  signed by a prominent artist, ok, maybe $600....But this was represented as an old, authentic piece of early Americana

I contacted the "editor" of the website regarding this piece and the poster of it, and questioned if they really should be allowing such things, and the reputation this sort of continued actions could give such a site in its infancy.

The editor wrote back and asked for a "link" to the thread....which I thought was rather odd...

I went back to find the thread to supply her with a link...and it was GONE.

Hmmm...that bothered me, and made little sense, until I dug a little deeper...

The poster of the sign and the eBay auction was ALSO the OWNER OF THAT WEBSITE.

Ahhhh-haaa!

This little episode has made me question the reputation of this particular dealer(s)...and it bothers me that they are running a website that is gaining significant ground in the antiques community.  It is a license to rip folks off. I know many eBay sellers are paranoid that eBay is ripping us off (yeah, I know, whole different discussion there), reading/filtering our internal emails, whatever...But, if this person/these people will blatantly censor their screw-ups how can you be sure they are not messing around with internal stuff as well? 

Actually, what I am most concerned about is that is was not a "screw-up" that went unnoticed and then got covered up by the embarrassed party, but a blatant misrepresentation of a fake item as real, meant to deceive the unaware purchaser/bidder.

If you are reputable, you should be willing to "eat" your screw-ups.  Don't pass a fake you bought as "real" on to someone else as "real" after you have found out that it is a fake. And, if it IS found to be a fake AFTER you have sold it, stand behind your merchandise, and willing take it back, with apologies. Otherwise, you are risking your reputation and future sales. That really rare item you find next time and want to sell for big money is automatically suspect....tainted by your unwillingness to accept the fact you screwed up on something else previously

Just learn from it and go on. Maybe keep the piece as a reminder...even to compare it to other similar items to gauge their authenticity. Yes, I admit it, I have tossed some of my screw-ups into auctions...I think most dealers do that at one time or another. But, I also don't represent them as what they were represented as to me. They are what they are, "Caveat Emptor", as you likely know with most auctions. But, there are many items I just stuck away in a box, destroyed, etc...the odd one that involved larger sums of money I returned to the seller, who feigned ignorance, or was genuinely unaware that the item was not what they said it was. I will strive to not get rid of those screw-ups anymore to the potentially unaware!   Actually, what I strive for is to not be deceived by those items in the first place.....but, you learn everyday in this business...the education never stops.

However, for you, my loyal readers (ok, that is enough hoity-toity-ness...) maybe by reading this blog you won't have to learn as much via the hard (and potentially expensive) ways.

Sometimes you may come across "fakes" that are not "fakes" per-se...they are things like "museum models"....items to represent the real thing, which is either unavailable for display, too valuable to be shown/handled by the public, on loan elsewhere, etc, etc.

Others are created for deception for monetary reward, or personal satisfaction...

A friend of mine (who passed away some years ago) dealt in transportation collectibles. There was one particular "collector" in the field who proclaimed himself an "expert" who knew everything there was to know. He was even writing a book.

WARNING: Arrogance can get you in trouble.

There was a particular drinking glass type with a thick bottom that a Canadian railway used. Their logo was etched on the glass.

Oddly enough, a gas bar at the time was giving away a strikingly similar glass set.

Other than being too clear (older glass used in such glassware tends to be slightly grey, or otherwise ever so slightly tinted due to ingredients used at the time), it had one other difference....a 1/4" size bubble in the middle of the bottom. The originals had a thick base without any encapsulated center bubble.

My friend was tired of this fellow's constant acts of supposed "superiority" to him and others in the collecting community.

He got a set of the gas station promotional glasses together, and had them etched with the identical logo.

This fellow bought them, swearing up and down they were the real thing...as far as I know my friend did not represent them as real, he sold them as "unsure", but, then again, I wasn't present at the time of the sale.

They appeared pictured in the book he wrote AS THE REAL DEAL.

My advice to you is to avoid being full of yourself...that dangerous arrogance...there is always someone out there who will take advantage of that...it is a weakness, not a strength. Stay humble.

I do not condone what my friend has did, but he was still a good friend, and would have given the shirt off his back for you....but, he hated arrogant people. He sold tons of authentic items, don't get me wrong, but there were items he sold that were "restored" and "finished"...and one early Baird-type advertising clock that was a real, old clock...but had a repro paper Orange Crush or was it (Coca-Cola?) dial, sold to a very, very knowledgeable picker,who really should have known better....though, given the constantly eroding reputation of this particular picker, it is possible he knew full well it was not authentic, but appreciated the fact that it was a well done "fake" and had someone he knew he could stick with it for a substantial profit....My friend sold it for what it was worth as a non-advertising version of the clock, by the way.  He had created it just to see if he could create an authentic looking piece, and it was originally "not for sale".....but, someone who he likely felt deserved to be taken down a notch stepped into his store.

No, that is not my way of looking at things. Karma is a hell of a thing. I use the word loosely, but the way, not in the literal Indian religion sense. My view is more simplified down to "if you do good things, good things will happen...you do bad things and bad things will happen." I don't dabble in any particular religion,  nor is it my claim that any religion is better than any other.....just to make myself clear. I'm a picker; not a Priest, Pastor,  Rabbi, Sahib, etc, etc.  

I pray to the "junk gods!"

 Maybe it came back to bite my friend in the butt. His departure form this world was a way too early, and excruciatingly painful & tortuous exit. 

My ethics are much more rigid, and I did not approve of this actions, nor his repairs/restorations of items and their later sale as being in original condition.  But, his heart was good, and pure in intentions towards those he cared about.  I have been treated poorly in the past by others who claimed to be more honest & forthright than they actually are/were.  People have flaws, but they can be purposely overlooked, and overshadowed by other good traits that overshadow those flaws.

Hmm..went off on bit of a philosophic tangent there, didn't I?

Back to the important stuff...old junk!

So, there are things out there that will deceive you. Some are made intentionally to deceive, other items are made to look old as an pleasing aesthetic, and other items have just aged or been changed in some way by natural causes (etc) that make them appear to be something that they are not.

Check this old coin out:

Looks kind of like those encrusted Roman coins you see all over the Internet...or a metal detector discovered freshly dug coin, doesn't it?

Check out the date on the other side...definitely not Roman!

Here is a complete view of the other side:

Neat, eh?

So, 1896, and being that it is 2010 now, this coin is 114 years old, right?

Wrong.

Sure looks old, doesn't it?

Well, it IS old...but only about 35 years old. Yes, it dates from the early 1970s.

I happened to recognize what it was right away when I found it....you see, this is part of a set of coins made for the public to collect. They were given away individually with gas purchases in the 1970s by Shell gas stations in Canada.

Charles Tupper was the Canadian Prime Minister...in, yes, 1896....the shortest serving Prime Minister in Canadian history...serving from May 1st, 1896 to July 8th, 1896.

Lots of these (and others with older and newer dates) around, and one of those things that are constantly brought in to weary Canadian coin dealers and Canadian antiques dealers by the general public.

Value?

Well, most coin dealers have them in their 3 for a buck bins...so that will give you an idea of their "value"....or, rather, lack of value.

So, how come mine looks SO old?

No, I didn't age it.

I found it, just like it is, under a carpet in an old house I was cleaning out....but a house that was built in the 1950s, not 1800s....perhaps if it was in an older house, I might have had to study it for more than a second to assure myself it was not that old. And, had I been unfamiliar with these coins, I might have even been deceived for awhile longer. But, the age of the house, and the location I found the coin in adds to the reluctance to believe the date on the piece represented the age of the coin.

Amazing what years of moisture, carpet leached chemicals, carpet cleaners, and who-knows-what-else can do to a cheaply made piece of bric-a-brac! These were made of a plated zinc, thus deteriorate easily in a variety of conditions.

So, this sort of thing pops up, and you have to be careful with judging an item strictly by wear, corrosion, etc.  Same goes for LACK of wear on an item.  Dealers often turn items over, and this is not always to look for certain marks, but to see if their is "appropriate" age related wear on the bottom. 

Take for example a glass candy jar of the type used in a store, or a Planter's Peanut jar. There should be scuffs/scratches/wear on the points on the bottom where it rubs on the counter. Being moved and shoved around for 50, 75, 100 years tends to wear things down, glass included. The item might be outrageously in good condition for something so heavily used that you suspect it to be a repro, but when you turn it over and it is heavily worn on the bottom you may well, and likely correctly, assume it is authentic.

But, this is NOT the only reason you should be deciding it is old and not a repro.

You should also include the glass's hue being correct for the period, the thickness or thinness of the glass, etc, etc, etc.  What if the piece was never used, and had sat on a basement shelf for 75 years, and was only recently well washed and put on that thrift store shelf, or on that table for in the auction? 

So, wear isn't always the determining factor.

The more knowledge you have behind you the better. Though, experience is always the best teacher.

Familiarizing yourself with items issued for celebratory reasons is something to do, also.

Take, for example, a coin I saw advertised at a local auction. It was a 1670 coin with a ship on it.

Hmmm...

I immediately had my doubts it was actually from 1670, and if it was, could well be a common foreign coin...kind of like those common Roman-era bronze coins you can buy by the hand full quite cheaply.

I went to the auction preview in the morning and looked at it up close, and quickly decided that it was indeed old.....but only as old as I was. Yes, that is correct, I wasn't born yesterday. I was born in 1970.

And so was the coin.

I should get a picture of the coin. I know who bought it, for a sum nearing $300.  He was new to the business, and paid a premium dollar figure for that lesson. Maybe will add it later, we'll see if he still has it when I stop by his shop. 

You see, his was pretty beat up, had a dark "patina"....

Here is what the coin I am speaking of looks like when it hasn't been beat up.  

Yes, just click on the sentence...then page down on that page to a red rectangle...which is the case the coin came in when given to employees of the Hudson's Bay Company on the 300th anniversary of the company....in 1970.

Note how the 9&6 are intertwined, essentially one in the same....

And how easy it would be to smack the coin right on the tail of the "9" and obliterate it the fact it exists.....add some more marks, then bury it in some acidic soil for a year or more, and VOILA, an "antique" coin....

Whether this was a purposely done to deceive in that particular case, or just something someone found as it was, like my "1896" coin, and incorrectly assumed was actually quite old, is unknown.

I didn't attend the auction, as there wasn't really enough there to justify me staying all day. I left some bids, and went on with my day. But, I did find out who bought the coin awhile later. And, yes, I had pointed out to the auctioneer, before the sale, that it was not from 1670. He sold it as an "old coin". There is that caveat emptor, again. I'm sure auctioneers get told things by people viewing items at their sales all the time; things that may or may not be correct...he just has to do his job.

So, you need to use a combination of the various things you know to determine age and authenticity of items. You can score a fantastic piece that everyone else has passed up as a "repro" or "fake" if you have the knowledge to back you up....and, you can avoid getting stung by using that same knowledge. You will make use of your knowledge for the latter more often than the former, as there are more suspect items out there than gems, but don't dismiss those items entirely that seem "too good." Be suspicious, sure, but don't make a crack judgement, unless there is that glaringly obvious "issue" you identify right off that screams FAKE or REPRO. Besides, handling those fakes & repros assists you in making a more educated decision next time...just don't BUY the fake/repro....unless, of course, you want it as reference or comparison and the price is "right".

Yeah, the beads on that native artifact may be 100% authentic fur trade era trade beads from the 1700s/1800s...but the leather hasn't been tanned in the fashion of the period....then you notice the thread isnt; "period".

 And, if you happen to know that those antique beads still do turn up in unused batches, plus are easily obtained from far less valuable AFRICAN native made artifacts of the same period, you might be clued in to look for more clues as to the item's age. Everything should add up.  Sometimes there is information out there not generally available to the public. Though it may be tough to determine origin, thus the item is assumed to be authentically "Indian made" or something like that.  In Manitoba, as an example, there was a community of squatters, located near a larger community. These squatters had access to willow...and the population, made of both native Canadians, mixed-blood and Caucasian (and possibly even other races), made aboriginal type willow baskets...for use and for sale in the larger center. It is essentially impossible to tell the difference whose hands made them, however. This particular detail doesn't really make them any less valuable, nor thought of as potentially "fakes". Though around that area, many people are aware of that tid-bit of history, and thus us local dealers marking them as "authentic aboriginal willow baskets" may get a slight roll of the eyes from the odd person reading the tags...and, they are found more commonly around that particular area than elsewhere.

Another thing to be careful of is the "it was my grandmothers" story.

Certainly, it well COULD have been owned by their grandmother...but, grandmothers shop at Wal Mart, too.

They quite likely even are not lying, and they could well believe the item is old, and some folks may not even be convinced in a million years of anything other than how old they think/were told by granny how old the object is, 'cause granny/mom/dad wouldn't have lied to them....

And, just because someone is old, doesn't mean they are honest....so, even if you are buying it FROM that sweet, little ol' granny, make sure you know what you are buying. Plus, people's memories do change, and things do get mixed up in the telling of stories...that ancestor's "Civil War" used  rifle may actually be great-grand dad's hunting rifle. They aren't trying to purposely deceive you, so tread carefully, don't accuse, but just be aware of what you are buying, and if you are offering an "old hunting rifle" price and not a Civil War relic price, explain why you believe it is not Civil War period...having some irrefutable reference material on hand helps. But, disproving family stories can be touchy with some people, so it might be worth while to you to let sleeping dogs lie, and pass on making an offer at all.'

++++

So, there are a few more things I have learned....and am freely passing on to you....which will hopefully save you/make you some money sometime.

Which brings me to another subject....to be covered in a future blog!