Nazis And Recycling: A Sort of Hitler Youth Knife - Part 3

Ok, so, this knife we have been talking about...or rather, I have been talking about....ok, ok....I have been TYPING about about...(You happy Ms/Mr Fussypants???)

ANYWAY, this knife is termed a "Ridgeback"...and also commonly called a "sawback".

Story goes that this style of back was meant for inflecting the worst damage possible and entry and exist of a human body part...


Who knows what the true facts are...they may be lost to history, or maybe someone out there has official paperwork that will clarify the facts, who knows.

It is noted in Wikipedia that:  "One of these multipurpose designs was the sawback bayonet, which incorporated saw teeth on the back spine of the bayonet blade. The sawback bayonet was intended for use as a general-purpose utility tool as well as a weapon; the teeth were designed to facilitate the cutting of wood for various defensive works such as barbed-wire posts, as well as for butchering livestock. It was initially adopted by Great Britain in 1869, followed by Switzerland in 1878, and Germany in 1905. The sawback proved relatively ineffective as a cutting tool, and was soon outmoded by improvements in military logistics and transportation; most nations dropped the sawback bayonet feature by the turn of the century. The German army discontinued use of the sawback bayonet in 1917 after protests that the saw-toothed blade caused unnecessarily severe wounds when used as a fixed bayonet."

So, what ever the real story is on "sawbacks" this one is still an oddball....why does this post WW2 knife, with NOS Hitler Youth grips have a sawback blade?  Again, who knows. One can surmise that there were WW1 era surplus bayonet blades lying around this particular factory, or perhaps there was active production of sawback blades for some other purpose in the Nazi military or other Nazi organizations of the period.

Whatever the reason, this sawback blade makes this knife an oddball. It has obviously been ground down from a longer blade, as the sawback notches continue right to the point of the point where they disappear with what the blade has been re-ground.

Now, just to throw another bit of confusion in, the Nazi German Red Cross EM Daggers also had the sawback.What its purpose really was is thus far unknown, and it seems, as happens during/shortly after wars, documentation has been lost, destroyed, misplaced, hidden, etc. There is lots of speculation out there....this thread happens to cover it a bit. I suspect that the answer lies in the the far more mundane idea that it was intended for use as a saw in making splints, crutches, etc on the field.

PLUS, the sawback feature seems to appear on other "dress" bayonets of the period...German Firemen's Dress bayonets, and more than likely others.

So, that is where I have ended my research. Thus, I have decided to price it at $125, seeing as it is an unusual example of what it is, but not a "real" Hitler Youth knife.

At this point, I am tempted to keep it, and start collecting these not quite Hitler Youth knives...but, I already have one knife collection going, and one that is more Canadian....fur trade/pioneer knives.

That is another blog post all on its own!

Nazis And Recycling: A Sort of Hitler Youth Knife - Part 2

Ok, those of you who are still befuddled by my closing statements as to the Hitler Youth knives that are not  really Hitler Youth knives, this is for you!

I talked with a long time militaria collector recently,  who has 5 DIFFERENT examples of this same knife. 


He doesn't have this one.

Serious collectors will identify differences in things. 


Goes with all areas of collecting. Variations in styles, images, marks, signatures, base materials, colors, parts, compositions, age, etc, etc, etc. Some serious collectors tend to want all the different variations of something they collect. Depending on how advanced (or just plain obsessed) the collector is will determine just how minor the variation is to become something they desire to add to their collection of examples of that particular item.

Will the fellow I talked to buy this one? 

Maybe. My gut says that if he was having some good sales at the show I talked to him at, he would have said "save it for me." But, the economy the way it is, and the fact being that these knives are part of a sub-collection of his main collecting interests (WW2 militaria & weaponry), it doesn't quite "fit" perfectly in his "I Really Need This For My Collection" line of thought.  Thus, it is not a "must have that at any cost I'll eat Kraft Diner for a week instead of real food" type of item. 

As for this knife, the difference in it is that "ridge back"....but, the fact is, this may well not be the blade used on the Hitler Youth Knives. 


Also, I am NO expert on Hitler Youth knives. Nor Nazi-Germany related items, period....so I will need to do a little digging/research....you can come along for some of it.

Warning, am about to go off on what initially will seem like a tangent, rant, spewing of political opinion, etc, etc, but bear with me and work with me through this, ok?  There is a point to it, unrelated to "opinions" I may hold.


There are a couple reasons for me not becoming an expert or highly knowledgeable in Nazi items. 

(#1) It is an area in which there are FAKES galore (not to mentioned modern neo-Nazi crap, fantasy items, movie/TV props, etc.) American Civil War items are the only other category that seems to contain more  faked items..and only because the Civil War happened long before WW2....(*DUH*). 
And, a fact lesser known/realized/considered is that the events being of "recent" history, there are still NOS and previously unknown/unseen items coming out of the woodwork, especially with increased ease of any individuals access to the Internet.
I don't mean by "Fred down in Florida". I mean by those residing in countries which had been "closed" (or sealed tight) after WW2. These are countries that collectors in the "Western World" have had little or ZERO access to until recently.  Formerly communist/dictator/regime ruled countries' entrepreneurial residents  are digging into their "archives" of WW2 artifacts (IE: hoards/warehouses/caves/lake bottoms/river bottoms/battlefields/basements/attics/vets' war souvenirs/estates/etc/etc/etc) and stuff is popping out of the wood work.  (Remember when East Germany opened up?)
 Some of the real stuff look more fake than the fakes themselves...only because Mr Brawnosovitchki's uncle owned the stamping factory where the originals were made, who now owns the place, and he found a barrel of not suite perfect, but darn close, "rejects."  Originally stamped out in 1942, and got lost in the back storage in 1943, and never got melted down. Now Mr Brawnosovitchki has now discovered eBay....much to the chagrin of the half dozen collectors who have coveted their "one of 6 known" badges, all of which were brought back as battlefield souvenirs by vets.  Oh well, there goes the market!  (FYI, Mr Brawnosovitchki is a figment of my imagination, so don't bother Googling him...)



(#2) WW2s is an era that was...well....horrific when it comes down to it. 
War is war, blah, blah, blah, but when it comes down to the purposeful extermination of any human group I get a little...mmm...let's just say (and I say this being VERY conservative with my terms), "annoyed."  No, I am not interested in a debate about Nazis, Aryans, or even diverting to the politics of abortion, capital punishment, etc. I'll keep those views to myself, as should you....you may even find your views start to change with knowledge & education.

I will tell you, I do know of the existence of ORIGINAL photos of Auschwitz as it was when the first allied soldiers arrived.......BEFORE a CLEAN-UP of the site was undertaken, which is what all the currently published photos show.  Humans have done horrible things to fellow humans...we don't even know the worst of it. 

Unimaginable horrors that your most warped, psychopathic imaginative horror flick producer could not envision. Fact IS stranger (and more horrific) than fiction. Take the worst movie, "Real" YouTube video, etc, and times it by 1000 fold...then you might get halfway to envisioning the things that have occurred in reality.


Yes, the things you can potentially learn in this business goes beyond "making money from junk" can permanently alter your view of the world, and the people who inhabit it.  Sit down and talk to a vet from WW2 who experienced the front lines...if they are willing to talk about the horrific side of war.  Those who wage war are not the ones who have to deal with it, nor its after effects....and that is why war still occurs, IMHO.

Yes, this business, for me, is not all about making money.  If you are good at what you do, you will not be able to help but learn things not related to the $$$$ values of things. History wraps itself around objects.

To truly understand value, "provenance", etc, you need to listen to an object's history. I don't mean in a "New Age" sort of "this object has an aura/soul/life force of its own" sort of thing. I mean that an object was created for purpose, and was potentially used for that purpose...or was used for some other purpose, for some other reason.


And that brings me full circle...back to this particular knife and it's "ridge back" blade....and pushing it into ANOTHER separate blog post.  Many folks have short attention spans, you see!

Nazis And Recycling

I picked up a piece at an auction back in early July, in a box lot.  I did buy the box lot specifically for this particular item, and was excited to get it. Not sure what the box cost me, but it was under $10, possibly as low as $2. Bought a van load of box lots that day, and spent $175 total, and never paid more than $15 for any lot I bought.

Sort of like a mini-version of a storage locker auction, except you can check out the boxes, most of the time.  Like those sorts of auctions, you get a bunch of junk you can't really use, and sometimes there are surprises.

This item was not a surprise, though. I was pretty sure as to what I was bidding on. Considering the piece, and it's value, I was the only one who did. Not that it is worth big money, but I have tagged it at over $100. Darn good markup. Might be even worth more than that to the right guy, but we'll see.

By now you are thinking:

 "What the heck does any of this have to do with Nazis???"

Patience, my little grasshoppers, patience.

The item I bought the box lot for is pictured below:

It is a very good quality knife, dating from the mid to late 1940s. The sheath is a little chintzy in comparison...which should be your first clue something is "off."

I know, it has a symbol that looks like a Fleur-de-lis on it. So how can it be related to the Nazis of WW2?

Yes, at first glance it might be mistaken for a Boy Scout knife..but, the style of the Fleur-de-lis is not like any of the images the Boy Scouts use.

As a matter of fact, the knife is of a style used by one country's youth group.

Nazi Germany's Hitler Youth.

Actually, the grips ARE actual Hitler Youth grips.

The blade I am not so sure is a Hitler Youth blade, but I will get to that in a later blog,

Here is an enamel pin from the Hitler Youth, shown beside the knife's handle.

 

And, as you can see from the photo below, it conveniently matches the size and shape of the Fleur-de-lis insert! 

As it turns out, the same enameled logo was used for these knives, but with a post-style back, from what I understand.  

AH, now I recognize the look on a few faces in the crowd!!! I've seen it before. Those of you who are a little...well, devious, may be thinking, "AH, I can "create", a sort of real Hitler Youth knife with this little tip."

Forget it. Ethically, IMHO, it is wrong.

But that is neither here nor there for those of you who lean in that direction.  

I can tell you for a fact that as far as time spent compared to resulting increase in perceived value.....well, it WILL be a waste of your time.  The way these are put together, it is not worth the effort, AND odds are, you will not be able to match some key components with period replacement/period-appearing parts ANYWAY...so any real collector will not give you ANYTHING for it in the end.
SO, you will end up destroying a good piece that has ready market among militaria & knife collectors as the knife exists now, and in truth you will not really increase the value all that much to begin with...IF you know what you are looking at and how to determine what it is worth by its current composition of parts. 

 Confused? 

Going to keep you in suspense, and give you some details in a later blog posting!